David Sandell
Bonny Snowdon 00:06
Hello, I'm Bonny Snowdon, ex corporate person, a mother turned successful artist entrepreneur. It wasn't that long ago though that I lacked the confidence, vision and support network to focus on growing my dream business. Fast forward past many life curveballs, waves of self-doubt and so many lessons learned and you'll see Ignite, my thriving online colour pencil artists community, a community that changes members lives for the better and gives me freedom to live abundantly whilst doing what I love and spending quality time with my beloved family and dogs, all whilst creating my best artwork with coloured pencils, and mentoring others to do the same. But this life wasn't always how it was for me, it used to only exist in my imagination. I've created the It's a Bonny Old Life podcast to help increase people's confidence, share mine and my communities experience and hope through fascinating personal stories, champion the other amazing humans in my personal, professional and membership community, and create another channel through which I can support others to realize their dreams. If you're a passionate colour pencil artist, or an aspiring one who's looking to create their best work, and a joyful life you love, you're in the right place. Grab a cuppa and a custard cream, let's get cracking.
My guest this week is someone who I have followed for quite some time, and I'm in absolute awe of his pencil work and also his oil work. I'm delighted and slightly humbled to be speaking to the amazing artist, David Sandell. We talk about all sorts of things. And both of us get a bit giddy about lost edges. So, do have a listen, what a fantastic man to be speaking to. I really wanted to chat to you because you have been definitely one of my inspirations as an artist just starting out in art sort of 2016 when I started. And when I saw your pieces in the UKCPS exhibitions and in the talking point, the UKCPS magazine. I was just like, Oh, my goodness. And I also got a portrait book. I think it's an ankle book portrait book. And you've got a few pieces in there as well. Just absolutely good. Oh, no, it's not kind of all it's true. And what I love about your work is that you use colour pens, like I use colour pencil. But you also use colour pencil to do your initial sketches before you do a big oil painting.
David Sandell 02:38
That's correct.
Bonny Snowdon 02:38
Which I think is wonderful. So, I just wanted to talk to you really about you and your work. And how you got into art because you're not a full-time artist are you?
David Sandell 02:51
No, actually I still run a design agency. My background is in advertising and design, I suppose. But I was a freelance illustrator for years. A jobbing illustrator, I think you could call it where you basically have to do what the clients asked you to do. Whether it be an engine or a map, or a figure drawing in the style of something. So, basically, you don't choose how to do it, you have to meet a brief. And it usually has a deadline. But what that does, it teaches you to watch the clock in your billable hours of experience, I guess. But I've always sketched and drawn anyway. You get to a point where you think I actually want to do what I want to draw rather than being told what to do.
Although I do Commission's. I do try and retain creative control if I do a portrait commission. So, I'm choosing the composition and the lighting and everything. But yeah, I just love it. As an artist you know what it's like, we are slightly mad, aren't we? You have dark moments and moments of euphoria. But I just love it. And I'm constantly thinking about art all day, every day. It's always on my mind. Even in the middle of the night, I'll have an idea and I think, I've got to write that down. And it could come from a book, or a piece of music, or something I've seen. Quite often it's a book though. If I read a book and I just think, I got to draw this character. And I try and find a model that fits that. So, quite often I'm drawing portraits for myself.
Bonny Snowdon 04:31
That's really fascinating because you can draw from life, you can just put pencil to paper and you can draw. And me included, there are so many people who struggle too, I can draw to be fair, I'm being unkind to myself.
David Sandell 04:49
You can clearly.
Bonny Snowdon 04:50
Yeah, I can dra. And I keep on saying to myself, I must go and do some life drawing classes and there is one probably about an hour away from me that I could join. And there's always something that's stopping me, it's probably dark nights and all of that kind of thing. But when you talk about something inspires you in a book, and it's like, oh, I just need to draw this character. That's like the most fantastic thing that somebody can actually then just go, oh, I just love to draw this character, I need to find a model that looks a little bit like that character in my head, and then off you go and draw it. That's just wonderful. That must be a wonderful feeling to know that you can just put your pencil on paper and draw.
David Sandell 05:36
Yeah, I'm not actually inventing them, I'm actually trying to find reference. For example, typical example was I read a book years ago, before he was Prime Minister, Boris Johnson's book on The Churchill Factor. Churchill was a moment character himself. But there were some fascinating insights in there, because Boris Johnson is a good writer, regardless of what you think about him as a politician. And he adds a bit of source as journalists do, but I just thought, I'd just love to draw Churchill. But of course, he's not alive. So, you have to use what's available on the internet. But I tried to create my own drawing of Churchill from various sources. And I just put a quote behind him, we shall defend this island, etc. And I put the quote behind the drawing. So, the drawing basically was a compilation of different reference material. But with my twist on it. As I say, it could be music that makes me want to draw something but I've predominantly portraits over the last 10 years. But I do a lot of seascapes and landscapes now in oils. But as you say, I always go back to colour pencils I just think its versatile.
Bonny Snowdon 06:09
You have a really lovely way of getting the pencil down on the paper. It's almost like a minimalist. That sounds weird, doesn't it? Because it's obviously not minimalist, because you have to get the layers and everything down. But it's not layer after layer after layer, and burnishing and different colours whatever. You have a way of just being able to put pencil onto paper for it then to live and breathe. But it not be overly done, it is almost like a less is more that I get with your pieces.
David Sandell 07:20
To understand what you're saying, I use a really restricted palette. Quite often I'll do a drawing with just three or four pencil colours. Because quite the same painting to be honest. It's a very useful exercise to do an oil painting, even with just three or four colours, a very limited palette, because what it does, it simplifies everything. I’m often asked for what’s my tip with colour pencils, I just say, don't feel you have to use every colour in the tin. You could get away with three or four pencils. We both use tone paper, don't we? We both use toned paper because it gives you the option of taking the values in both directions. And you've already got the middle value there.
Bonny Snowdon 08:04
That exactly. I've just been using the toned paper for the one I've been doing. But I use all the pencils. That's actually a lie. I probably don't. I probably want to turn it into a piece. One of my own pieces I probably only use about five or six pencils.
David Sandell 08:23
You're probably using variations of one colour.
Bonny Snowdon 08:26
Yes.
David Sandell 08:27
Rather than every colour on the tin you're probably using I don't know, cyan and orange, which are very similar in terms of the colour, but just different hues, I guess. All related. So, even if I’m doing a landscape, there's predominantly only a few colours in it sometimes. I love doing landscapes either in the morning or evening. Because that lights more interesting.
Bonny Snowdon 08:53
Exactly.
David Sandell 08:54
And generally, it does narrow the colour you're working with, because it's either pink or orange or whatever in the evening. But that's fascinating as well. I'm very interested in the seascapes, because I always think of it. It has the same kind of characteristics as skin. The sea and skin don't have a colour. They're basically the reflection of what's around them and what lies beneath. And I find that quite fascinating because with a portrait you can have purples, greens, blues, everything in there. It's not pink. So, to start with a flesh colour was a bit suspicious when somebody says use the flesh colour. Well which flesh is that
Bonny Snowdon 09:41
They don't call them flesh anymore. They've changed.
David Sandell 09:43
They don't it's right. But as you know the range of colour pencils now is just fantastic. We've come such a long way in the last 20 years.
Bonny Snowdon 09:53
They are amazing, but you're absolutely right. Because then what happens when people are learning I must get about, 10 to 20 emails a day saying, "Please, can you help me with this colour? I've got this dog to draw, I've got this cat to draw or whatever, please, can you help me with this?" What colours do I need? And I'll answer and I'll say, Oh, well, this and the other. But actually, you don't have to match. The colours aren't really that important.
David Sandell 10:22
That's a very important point, I think. And one class is locally, and one of the most important things is really having a colour strategy, particularly the landscapes, because we're never going to match the quality of nature. The colours of nature, you just cannot match. So, you have to come up with a strategy to try and give your own twist on those colours. And you do that by bringing in complementary colours, or split complementary or triadic colours. Colour as you know, is a science in itself, which I wouldn't even attempt to get into. But just understand the fundamentals and you're having a colour strategy, whether to portrait or landscapers or still life is very important. Because you can't paint the sun, you can't match the colour of a flower. You can try. But because we can't match it, we have to come up with some way of bringing that colour yellow, red of flower by introducing it's complimentary, which makes it brighter. So, there's all sorts of little visual tricks artists use to make the most of their palate. It's a learning curve every day, isn't it?
Bonny Snowdon 11:42
It really is, I keep on putting myself on mute because the puppy is going mental behind me. I might have to go and put her in a cage. I think she's got some [Inaudible]. It really is and I think people get really hung up on colour. It's almost like they get stuck. I can't get this colour right. And for me, I kind of say, you know what, just try and forget about the colour. Just think about the values, think about your lights and your darks. For me, that's the most important part. And actually, you're getting so hacked up about getting an exact match to a colour on a photograph. It doesn't matter. You could have a bright pink horse. I've done some pieces just recently where I've retouched them. I've taken photographs, I've retouched them in Photoshop, and I've put them all those bright colours, all sorts of different colours.
So, it’s a white horse that is pink and yellow, and blue, still looks incredibly real. But because you've got the values there, and you've got the lights and the darks and all of the shading. The colour is not real because you don't get that coloured horse, but it still looks real. And this is what I tried to put over to people that, when you're drawing a pet or something like that, yeah, it's important too. But then you're saying like with a portrait, we see so many amazing portraits. They don't look like her, you get the photo realism stuff. You don't have the portraits where they're done with oil or colour pencil everywhere. They're like perfect skin colour, you've got all of those beautiful hues in there. And all of those different like your blues and greens and yellows and purples as well as the pinks and everything. And that's what makes it a beautiful piece of art there.
David Sandell 13:29
Yeah, I think with colour I agree with you. There is a phrase I use which I got from an American artist who said to me, colour gets all the credit and value does all the work.
Bonny Snowdon 13:43
I love that. I'll be quoting it.
David Sandell 13:46
Colour has to have value but value doesn't have to have colour. Value is so important, getting those values comparing it across the piece regularly. And I've often said to people, take a rest stand back. Don't sit over it all the time. Give your eyes a rest. Have another look at it with fresh eyes after a break. And does that part match as dark as this piece over here. You have to constantly keep matching across your drawing. Which is why a break makes you see things you didn't see if you're hovering on rendering for hours on end. You know what's like when you do something, you come back to the next morning and think oh my goodness, that's so wrong.
Bonny Snowdon 14:32
Yeah. I guess the other thing as well with coloured pencils is because they're such a tight medium. We do have our nose literally on the paper half of the time. I've invested in this chair now that I've got its Herman Miller chair, and it goes all the way back. Wonderful thing. You think you're falling and that it stops you? It's fantastic because I can be sitting and drawing and I can just sit back, have a look at it because I like to see my pieces, the whole thing. And regularly take a really big step back or lean back in my chair. Because you can see the whole thing then. So, many times I've been drawing an eye or something. And I'm there for like what seems like hours, right up there. Sit back and I'm like, what, it's all wrong. Because you're seeing it at that such almost like magnified. You sit back and you see it with the context around it.
David Sandell 15:30
I think it's difficult because also, traditionally, colour pencil artists are sitting down only. The classes I do the general art class, and I said get up and walk around for a bit, because you're sitting down all the time. I cannot sit down and draw, I have to stand up. I stand up to paint, I stand up to draw because I have a slip disc or prolapsed disc about 12 years ago, and at that point, I couldn't sit. It was a trapped nerve and I just couldn't sit anywhere. So, basically, I learned to. Even at work in design agency I had to raise desk or standing up most of the day. It is tiring, but you tend to concentrate more because he's standing up. So, I paint and draw standing up now. And it makes me constantly stand back from the drawing. So, I have the same process for painting as I do for drawing. In a bill of the sort of the original drawing, then make a statement of initial darks and then indicate that the highlights. Only indicate them, I don't put them in and then build up the values from there. But it's the same process with painting, I tend to use the same process, which is why the pencils are great for testing and not painting, particularly portraits.
Bonny Snowdon 16:47
Sorry, I've had somebody come he just left it at the front of the door. So, I get people coming all the time bringing parcels that aren't for me. And then he sets the dogs off. There's always somebody here. I totally get that. And I love the fact that you work out. Do you work out? Is it just more composition feel like then before your oil painting?
David Sandell 17:15
I just started taking it. We moved into this new house recently. Report the house of an artist. A lady called a normal Gregory who was an RHS, botanical artist, gold medallist. And she's a friend now she comes back and sees us regularly. Lives in the Lake District. It was just fantastic to get to know her. But she also said would you take over my art classes in the village. So, yeah, okay. So, I got a lovely group of people who come on Saturday, and we need to distribute different subjects, it could be a still life, it could be a landscape. And I teach that basically, before we get involved in any detail or any techniques, let's just understand the fundamentals, composition, values, colour, texture, edges. And I go through those one a week. Regardless of what process we're doing; we focus on either the composition or whatever. And I say to them, look, just because you've got a photograph of something, don't assume that your composition, crop it. Try a landscape, try a portrait, zoom in on one part of it. But don't assume that footprint, or the specimen you see on the desk is your composition.
You've got to make a decision on your design, first of all. And I think that's quite important to get that part, right. Because if you did a beautiful drawing in the corner of a piece of paper, you think it could have been so much bigger. And the corner of that drawing runs off the edge of the paper. Because you didn't think about the composition. So, I tend to focus on those things before I get into technique because it's what the Academy's teach really, those key features of values kind of things. We just talked about values, colour, but edges are one of the understated secrets really. Understanding how to draw edges, because people remember, the line doesn't exist. It's implied everywhere, and exists nowhere in nature. They're not lines, they are the edges of something. Edges on an artistic tool. So, as to get people to think, don't think of that as a line. Think of that as the edge of something. And secondly, can you see the edge. If you can't be because it matches the value of something behind it. Or it's in shade and therefore it's a lost edge.
If you've got the sort of the edge of a shoulder which has got the light on it, gets a dark background, you've got a very sharp edge which is a found edge and just to get them to see a picture that doesn't look like a cut-out anymore. Particularly with animals you know that the edges of the fur, sometimes it's chopped, sometimes it's the last stage. And that enables the thing to have form. And a lot of people struggle with thicker drawings particularly, because they end up doing an outline to the figure or the face. And they say, well, if you look at that carefully, you actually can't see that line. There is no line, it's what we call a lost edge. It's something I'm still trying to master, if I'm honest with you, and I probably never will. But it's something I look at regularly. Have I got the edges, right? Because it does bring a picture alive if you get it right.
Bonny Snowdon 20:35
It really does. I tend to find the lost edges. Well, because I work on white pastelmat predominantly, my white and grey animals tend to have those. And the thing is when we're first starting out, we think that we need to put an edge in there to be able to see the animal, or what happens is, somebody will say, I'll put a black background behind it, that'll make it pop out. So, actually, the last edges give us much pop, if you like, as having a black background on a white animal if they're done properly. And I didn't really understand that until I had critiques from, do you know, Aaron Gad? Have you come across Aaron Gad? He is a colour pencil artist he does animals and his work is amazing. It's amazing. I had some critiques on from him in 2019. And I had given him a grey horse, I think it was to critique. And he was talking to me about the lost edges, basically where it just floats off into the background. And I now bring those in as much as I can. It's the connection between the subject and what's behind it. And to me, that's vitally important. I know sometimes people do put like a line around it, and it almost becomes like their style. I've seen a few sorts of realism pastel artists, where they actually bring. I asked myself why have they done that? And it's actually because it's their style.
David Sandell 22:15
Yes, so true. After all we still do line drawings, don't we?
Bonny Snowdon 22:18
Yeah.
David Sandell 22:19
Line drawings are something. And I do line drawings of pen and ink. I've used just about everything you can imagine from airbrush to pen and ink over the years. So, line does exist, but it's a technique rather than a real thing.
Bonny Snowdon 22:36
Yeah, definitely. And it's, and it's really nice to talk to somebody about that. Because, like you are saying, not many people really understand the importance of it.
David Sandell 22:47
Yeah, it needs demonstrating I think, to get it really. But how these things do, understand the texture and composition. Composition is probably the most controversial of all the principles, because some people say it's what it is. It's an actual painting. Like you throw stuff on the canvas, and it lands where it lands, or you follow the golden ratio, Golden Mean, and it has to be exactly in that position. The truth is probably somewhere between the two. I keep an eye on the sort of perfect proportions, but I don't follow it rigidly. I instinctively feel not focal point probably too far to the left or the right or whatever. But sometimes we're told to break the rules anyway. So, if there are rules, sometimes you break them to grab attention. So, that's the fascinating thing about this whole subject. It’s constantly evolving. People come up with something completely new, like the impressionists did, by using the narrow part of the colour value range to create. Basically, it was the colour strategy to leave out the two extreme values of the colour. Because it's the middle band of that colour from dark to light that really shows the identity of that colour like blue. Very dark and very light or less blue than the middle of the band.
Bonny Snowdon 24:16
Yes.
David Sandell 24:17
So, it's all those things I am still learning. Every day I read art books avidly, particularly some of the American illustrators from the Golden Age of illustration in America. Some of the best textbooks from that period I still follow. And my hero is Norman Rockwell, so I was lucky enough to go to his museum about a decade or so ago when I was in New York at a workshop. And I thought, you know what? I’ve come to fun not to visit Norman Rockwell Museum and it was amazing. One of the few times I got emotional in front of a picture. And I was standing saying, get a grip man. Some of his original and he was so prolific he was knocking these out every week, just for this Saturday post magazine. And this huge four-foot-wide portrait of a young man speaking in a crowd, and I thought, goodness, me, I just can't take this in. It was just so inspiring. And of course, you get to see his studio and everything else. But certainly, every good America to New York State, it's worth a visit to his museum.
Bonny Snowdon 25:36
Oh, you see, I think when you go to museums, and if you're not sort of an artist or sort of a person, or you don't paint or draw or whatever, and you go to the museums, and you look at the beautiful paintings, and whatever, and you can appreciate them. But I think when you actually know what goes into creating them, how important the lighting is, how important the subject and everything is, and the techniques and everything that I've used, it becomes a different thing to look at, doesn't it?
David Sandell 26:06
Yeah. And I quite often I've done it, I will never draw or blender, like Norman Rockwell or paint like Norman Rockwell. But some of the artists I tend to look at and follow and take inspiration from, I don't even attempt to draw a thing like them. I get something from it, that I make mine. We look to all other artists for something, but we have to be ourselves. There is no point in me trying to, and I think, if I have a criticism of art, generally, is that there are too many very well-known artists who are basically mimics of previous like Lucien Freud. There's a lot of people who are big names, who are basically copies of Lucien Freud and I'm a fan of Lucien Freud, why try and repeat what he did yourself. I think a lot of people try and copy the style of somebody else. I don't think the point of that is.
Bonny Snowdon 27:06
There's nothing really unique in that. If you're thinking about an idea, so if you go to like the advertising and the design, and everything that you do, there's nothing really unique that comes out of advertising anymore is there? Somebody's has already done it, basically,
David Sandell 27:23
They say, there's no such thing as an original idea.
Bonny Snowdon 27:26
Exactly. But we are all unique, every single one of us is completely different. And I think what comes out of us is down to our personalities, our emotions, our environment, all of that kind of stuff, and basically how your brain works. The kind of art that I love is, modern art. I love something that has got colours that is just sort of a couple of lines. I love that, I love it, because I can read my own story into it. I love something that is incredibly loose. Very impressionistic. Again, so that I can make my own mind up and my own story about it. Say, if I was to have a portrait done, and my children always have portrait done by animals, I would not choose a realism artist to do that portrait because that's not what I have on my wall. But I can't deal with that my brain doesn't allow me to do that kind of work. What comes out of my brain down my arm and through the pencils is what I put on the paper. And I love that. I absolutely love that because that's my tiny bit of control. My whole life is chaotic. Completely chaotic. And that is the one tiny bit of everything in my life that I can completely control. And I love that.
David Sandell 28:58
Yeah, I agree. Can I tell you something?
Bonny Snowdon 29:01
Yes.
David Sandell 29:01
Most pictures on the wall in my house are semi abstract or abstract. Usually very bright colours. Because it's not what I do. I can never go and I've done abstracts before, but it's not what fulfils me. But I do love having them on the wall. I've got friends who do abstracts and some very big names who do semi abstract landscapes and I've got two or three of them. But most of the pictures around the house are abstract art.
Bonny Snowdon 29:35
Yeah, like little illustrations that that are a little bit sort of not realism. They're all a bit odd.
David Sandell 29:44
Yeah.
Bonny Snowdon 29:45
I love that kind of thing. It's funny because I think every single art genre gets knocked. You know people hate art and people talk about realism as well, everything's the same. If you're a realism artist, you're exactly the same as the next artist. And it couldn't be more far from the truth. So, it's really good. And you can look at some very realistic pencil artists who all do the same subject. And each one is very different.
David Sandell 30:18
You can quite often pick them out, can you by looking at this? Oh, I know who that is. It's a little bit sort of realistic. Realism is a phrase; hyper realism is something slightly different. But I remember seeing at the BP portrait exhibition years ago, there was a painting, which is about 12 foot high, it was enormous of a head. And I thought, wow, that's extraordinary. And somebody said, it looks just like a photograph. I said, it isn't. It's gone beyond the photograph. So, realistic a photograph couldn't do that. Because it obviously, perhaps exaggerated some of the colours. And maybe did purple more purple, as opposed to sort of more. As you say, there's hyper realism, realism, it's finding that sort of what you're comfortable with. And, like you, I don't always paint the things that I would buy for myself to put on the wall. Because I tend not to put my own stuff on the wall anyway. I think we're very similar in that respect, because we both quite like detail as well, don't we?
Bonny Snowdon 31:24
Yes. Although --
David Sandell 31:26
But not all over the place?
Bonny Snowdon 31:28
No.
David Sandell 31:29
That's the key, having the detail in the right place.
Bonny Snowdon 31:32
I do a lot of critiques. I critique 25 pieces of art a week, which is actually one of my favourite’s times of the week, because I get to see my students work and I get to see how amazing their work is. And one thing that I really tried to get across, because when I look at your work, when you look at my work, when we look at realism work, we go, oh my goodness, it's so detailed, how fantastic. But actually, when we really look at it, if you really looked at my work, you probably wouldn't see a huge amount of detail. You're not going to see every hair, you're not going to see all of that, what you're going to see is, you're going to see the detail for me comes out in those tiny nuances of values that change throughout the whole piece. And that's where the detail comes from. And that's what I'm trying to instil in my students. And I think you go through a set of stages; I think you go from almost quite sketchy when you start and I still am very sketchy when I draw. And then I think you try and draw everything that you can see. So, every single further detail, even if there's no detail there, you still try and get it in. And then you start to get to really understand the form of what it is that you're drawing. And you really start to understand how light and dark makes such a massive difference. And then you understand that actually leaving detail out is a really good idea.
David Sandell 33:00
Fur or hair, it's about positioning or placing few very strategic hairs, and replicating the rhythm and the pattern of hair, or fur. Because there's a rhythm and a pattern too where the hair flows, given the impression or the illusion that you've painted every hair. But as you say, when people look closer, you think, he's only put a few hairs in, but it looks like the whole thing has been rendered. And that's part of the thing about edges as well, isn't it? It's not painting every little detail. It's about picking out the things that were important. And when we talk about those key things about composition, values, colour, etc. I always stick another principle right at the end. And I say the final thing you got to keep in mind is what made you want to paint this in the first place? Keep in mind your original idea, and try and keep it in mind throughout the piece so that you don't lose track. Why did I end up painting this in the first place? What am I doing with this? Wow, it was the fact that that that glint in the eye, or that highlight on the back of the hair that looks so beautiful. If you lose that and forget about that, you forget the meaning of your picture. So, I always say, in addition to colour value, composition, textures, everything else. Keep in mind, your original idea. What made it yours? What drew you to this in the first place?
Bonny Snowdon 34:30
Yeah, that's, I'm guessing you do. And this kind of links into that. Visualizing your pieces before. So, I'm guessing when you're reading a book or you are listening to his music, you'll suddenly have a vision of something and it will be there in your head and you'd be like I need to get this down on paper. Because that's how I start every single piece. I visualize everything. I visualize me doing it. I visualize the techniques, I've visualized colours, and I'd be like oh sorry, I visualize the end bet.
David Sandell 35:02
Yeah, I do the same. I know 20% into a painting. This is definitely going to work. And of course, there'll be ups and downs when I'm doubting myself. But there'll be a time when I think this is just never going to work. Because I've lost what it was that made me want to do it somewhere. That's what I'm saying. Basically, try and keep in mind what it was that appealed to you? What gave you that boost I got to draw that or that's so beautiful. I've got to convey that somehow.
Bonny Snowdon 35:38
So, what do you do then? If you do lose that halfway through? It's not okay, so you stop it.
David Sandell 35:42
Start again, sometimes, yeah. I don't have many what I got a sort of just been them. I've got lots of unfinished canvases.
Bonny Snowdon 35:52
When you scrap things, I'm sure there are times where you start it and you think, Oh, I'm not quite sure about this. This is what I did. Not quite sure about this. I'm just going to keep going and see how it goes. And usually, it turns out and it's fine. But very seldom but not never, there comes a time where I'm like, this isn't working, and I'm wasting my time carrying on with it. So, I'm going to make a decision to just stop now. I don't get worried about that.
David Sandell 36:21
I mean, historically, as an illustrator, I didn't know that option. I was struggling with something and it had to be ready for the next morning. I didn't have a choice, I had to come up with a strategy to make this work. And you learn little tricks and things that get you out of a hole. So, quite often, I don't really ditch a picture, I will find a way of turning around and come up with something acceptable. But I don't want something acceptable most of the time, I want something that's my best piece of work. So, if somebody said to me, what's your best piece of work? The next one. And of course, that's not always the case.
But I would usually come up with a way of fixing things as I did as a commercial illustrator, because I didn't have an option. I had to deliver it to the client. It had to do a job, it had to sell something. Or explain or illustrate some things. So, I really ditched them. But I started the painting about 10 years ago, after visiting Monet's garden, in France. I think it was autumn, the sun was out, and I was blown away by the colours. And I thought, I've got to paint this. And I started to painting this big four-foot canvas. I've never finished it. And I know why it was just so complicated. And eventually I will paint it. But it's been 10 years in the waiting,
Bonny Snowdon 37:52
Right.
David Sandell 37:53
It's pretty good. No, it's not what I saw. What I saw was amazing. And I've come up with a strategy to actually convey that experience of what I saw. And I think at the time, I thought the man is gone. The man’s masterpieces weren't his paintings. It was his garden. That was the company that came to the latest extraordinary. But I usually fix most things and I don't often throw them away.
Bonny Snowdon 38:22
What do you think about perfectionism? Because it's something that I've got quite strong opinions about and I really steer clear of perfection. I have a very less a fair attitude of life in general really. And although I want my piece to be the best I can do. I'm also very much a it will do kind of person. It's not a bad piece of work, but I'll be like, I'm alright with that. That's okay. And people go oh my god, it's amazing. And I'm like, yeah. But I won't spend hours and hours and hours trying to perfect tiny bit and then when I finish it be disappointed because I haven't quite reached the perfectness that I thought I was going to have.
David Sandell 39:21
Maybe you're right. If it was perfect, you would never do another one Bonny, would you?
Bonny Snowdon 39:27
No.
David Sandell 39:27
You already go after the perfect. Perfect. 10. Now I'll stop there then. Because I'm not going to do another one. So, I agree. The next one is always going to be better because we learn something from everyone. Everyone we do we learn something that day and we take it on. And that's what keeps us going, I think. They just don't retire, do they?
Bonny Snowdon 39:48
No. It's just that I did a podcast a couple of weeks ago, around why I only use colour pencils. You know I'm not interested. I see other artists going, everybody should try and do different mediums and everything. I’m like I'm only using coloured pencils because I know I've got so much more to learn with colour pencils. I love them. I had a double of that oil painting and it was okay. But I didn't have the passion for it like I have with colour pencils. I just love my colour pencils.
David Sandell 40:23
Well, I do. As I say, as a child, I use colour pencils. As an illustrator, I use colour pencils a lot. And then I wanted to start doing landscapes and actually I wanted to do portraits really well. So, by 2006 I booked to go on a workshop in New York with a guy called Daniel E. Green is now passed away suddenly. And it was a most incredible experience. He was one of the best-known portrait artists in America at the time. And it was like being taught by Dumbledore. This wise old man, they talk very slowly, every word is always a gem. And I came back and thought I know what I'm doing now. I'm going to in paint oil. And of course, my first few attempts were brilliant. I started painting and that was before the turn of the century, really, but I only really got it after doing that workshop with him. And after seeing it's such a fantastic experience.
I've always rode both horses, the colour pencils and the oils. Because like you, I want to focus on one thing where possible. I even did a stonemason course, in New York. And I searched for an app, came back and said, I'm going to buy all the tools. I said, stop, stop, stop, stop. You're never going to do it. It’s never going to do well, anyway. So, just have fun, but concentrate on what you do best. So, I don't do watercolour anymore. I used to do watercolour. I don't often use, I use pastel, but it's usually in association with pencils. I tend to just use colour pencils, and oils. I've tried all the things and I always come back to colour pencils because of lots of reasons. And we know they're very subtle. They don't give you the vivid colours of pastels or oils. But hey, sometimes that's the quality you want.
Bonny Snowdon 42:26
Yeah, I love them. I absolutely love them. I have they changed my life. Are they just the most fantastic medium? They really are. And there is so much choice.
David Sandell 42:42
But your development Bonny, is just off the scale in terms of where you started. It's just wow. What a learning curve.
Bonny Snowdon 42:53
Yes, it's funny, I've been writing. I haven't got much more time. But writing a book. I'm writing on my second chapter. And I'm talking about levels of learning. The conscious incompetence and all of that kind of thing. There's like four levels, unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, conscious competence, and unconscious competence, those four levels that we kind of go through when we're learning. And I went through those quite quickly. And actually, I feel that when people get to that level three, where you're consciously incompetent, that's where an awful lot of people fall over and they go, I can't do this. They lose the confidence and they stop doing something. Whereas for some reason within me, I just kind of stormed through, I think because I was drawings such a lot. When I started drawing on a full-time job, I had the children, husband, horses, but I still managed to get probably four or five hours drawing in the evening. I stopped watching telly, I stop feeding the children, I stop doing the ironing, I just drew. And I was incredibly proud of every single piece that I did. I didn't do a piece and go, well that's really rubbish and get really upset. I don't think I've ever got upset about getting a piece wrong. I've always loved every single piece that I've done. And I don't know what it is in me that allows me to be like that because I'd like to share that with other people. Because so many people get so hung up because this is not right, oh gosh, I hate it. And mine I just love everything that I do. They might not have been very good, but I still love them.
David Sandell 44:39
Yeah. The way they are.
Bonny Snowdon 44:42
I honestly think that's how I got to where I am now is because I've loved every single moment of it.
David Sandell 44:49
Yeah. I'm going off to say to people I wouldn't kid you, this isn't going to be easy. If you just think you've got to sort of sit and render and let your mind drift and just by colouring book. Particularly with portraits, it requires concentration, which is why you have to take breaks, because it is deep thinking sometimes, which you have to sort of really concentrate on. Because it's not simple. I go off and say that portraits are easy for those that don't know how, and difficult for those that do. And it's so true. They have an easy fix.
Bonny Snowdon 45:29
These dogs, scurrying around. So, I know, both of us have got to go because I know we've got things to go to. I've actually got a voice coaching session coming up.
David Sandell 45:40
Of you?
Bonny Snowdon 45:41
Yes.
David Sandell 45:42
For singing?
Bonny Snowdon 45:43
No, for speaking
Bonny Snowdon 45:46
No, I want to be able to put certain things across a little bit better. Not to the dogs scurrying around and growling. So, I've been having some sessions with a voice coach to help me with strategies. Because every time there's a gap in my speaking, I want to fill it with something like an um, uh or something like that, and it's become quite open. So, she's helping me with certain things with that, which is really interesting.
David Sandell 45:46
[Inaudible] of speaking.
David Sandell 46:18
Well, you're a credit to your professionalism it's a credit to you.
Bonny Snowdon 46:24
Oh, thank you.
David Sandell 46:25
In everything you've done so far. I know we've talked about that before; you’re marketing and everything else and how organized you are. Yeah, you've got it together, Bonny. That's for sure.
Bonny Snowdon 46:36
Thank you. I have to say I've had some incredible help. I'm not willing to sit there and try to do on my own. I reach out to people who are experts in what they're doing to help me. Well, that's what's helped me get to where I am. And again, I think that's quite a good quality to be able to get help.
David Sandell 47:01
Yeah, we can't do everything.
Bonny Snowdon 47:02
Not at all. I know we are going to chat at some point. Anyway, I'm not sure whether we've got time right now. But that was fantastic. Honestly, I can talk to you forever.
David Sandell 47:13
I’ve never done a podcast before.
Bonny Snowdon 47:17
For me, it's just about talking to somebody and just sharing our chat. That's what it's all about.
David Sandell 47:22
I did listen to the one on with Lucy and a few other people. I thought quite a nice, relaxed chat format, isn't it?
Bonny Snowdon 47:32
Yeah. I don't want to throw questions at people and have everything really sort of ordered. I'm not that kind of person.
David Sandell 47:41
But it worked very well and hope it hope it comes out okay. No, thank you, Bonny. You just keep doing what you're doing because it's very impressive.
Bonny Snowdon 47:51
Oh, that's really kind of you. Thank you. And we'll catch up. Let me know when you've got those questions. Thank you.
David Sandell 47:58
Thank you, Bonny. I'll be in touch soon.
Bonny Snowdon 47:59
All right. Thank you. Bye.
David Sandell 48:00
Take care. Bye.
Bonny Snowdon 48:01
I really hope you enjoyed listening to this episode of my It's a Bonny Old Life podcast. If you did, I'd be so grateful to you for emailing me or texting a link to the show, or sharing it on social media with those who might like it too. My mission with this podcast is all about sharing mine and my communities experience and hope by telling your fascinating personal stories, championing the other amazing humans in my personal, professional and membership community, and to create another channel through which I can support you to realize your coloured pencil and life dreams. If you haven't done so yet. Please help me on my mission to spread positivity and joy throughout the coloured pencil world by following me on my socials at Bonny Snowdon Academy, or by getting on my list at bonnysnowdonacademy.com, and remember, I truly believe if I can live the life of my dreams doing what I love, then you can too. We just need to keep championing and supporting each other along the way in order to make it happen. Till next time.
